Line change and coil battery consumption.

Questions, Tips and Tricks about the transmitter, the electronics in the car etc.
Erik M
Posts: 16
Joined: Sat 2. Mar 2013 11:15

Re: Line change and coil battery consumption.

Post by Erik M »

Many thanks for those points, about me, Joel.
You point out the two probably most important things about my ramblings.
One, I don't think and say, I think, do, know and say.
If I am unsure, then I say so. If I am not, then assume I know.
Alpha, I have a very (Very!) direct style of writing.
If something should be there, then it is. If it's not inside, then it's not.

So, with this in mind... Raudi1... :mrgreen:
(And no offense or sarcasm, don't do such.)

The car follow the line. It also have steering.
My view is that only one of these shall apply.
At the present both do. You can help steer the car, help it keep holding the line at more speed than it can make on itself.

The capacity of the battery is in itself not the issue.
More what that capacity can do instead of running the coil warm (Hot?).
And maybe the battery can be smaller this way.
Smaller battery, lighter weight, less drain.
Less drain especially if you start making serious elevations...

Joel ~ Anti-ramming is easy. A micro switch and a pin needle... :yes

As for the other things...
Anti-collisions over line change points, is doable.
Regulated overtaking is doable.
Active autnomous cars, no PC needed, is very much doable.

And! Not allowing "steering" while the car is on a line is doable.
Main benefit, as I see it, is that lane change will then be a button, not a steering wheel.
You wouldn't have to think on and how and when to lane change.
Especially with regulated overtaking (actual automatic race line racing) you can concentrate on driving the car.
As there's no button at alll to press!
If you come up on a slower car your car switch lane to let you try to overtake.

And with the hardware for that above you can also add active autonomous cars.

What's the use of such?
Several, but perhaps the biggest... Many cars racing both themselves and you.
And however many there are, they are not more than one frequency... Speed and braking is told by the track, the radio only tells the Chase Cars to run or stand still. Ie you can have that radio sitting with a big panic button to stop all CC's at once.

And if Wes lights on this idea he can probably cook up just such a radio. Basically a box with ONE button. Press to start, bang to stop... Probably a big button, and VERY sturdy... :o

It's quite funny really.
All this comes from my MuCaRO project. Made for slotcars.
But it's built in such neat modules that almost all of them can be transferred to MAGracing.
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Joined: Wed 20. Feb 2013 00:01

Re: Line change and coil battery consumption.

Post by Kuipo »

Actually I disagree with you Erik. As raudi asked, have you actually gotten a car and played with them? When a car is on a rail, the internal electro-magnet functions, but is not strong enough to overcome the magnetic pull of the rail and the steering magnet. As such, when the car is on a rail, turning the wheel right or left on the controller results in no change to the car's direction (as long as the track is laid correctly). There is no need to "disable" the on-board electro-magnet since it already doesn't function.

Anti rear-ending mechanisms aren't actually needed. the cars run at a realistic speed that allow the drivers (with a bit of practice) to be able to not rear end each other, much in the same way as a real race car. Because of this, automatic lane changes are also unneeded and would actually take a lot away from the whole concept.

You also mention lightening the cars to make them use less battery on "serious elevations", which again is evident that you haven't used the cars yet since the cars can't really do much more than 1" of elevation gain over about 7"~10" of track or else they will never be able to stop on the track at any point and continue on. The only way to get them to climb more would be to alter the traction levels of either the track or car... which would alter the handling of the cars significantly.

As you said earlier, you and Wes are coming from different backgrounds, but that isn't the problem. The problem is that his goal, and what I get from your posts about what your goal are completely different. Wes has said he wants the cars to be more like real cars. Could he make them go faster? Yes. Could he make them spin out less in the corners? Yes. He's carefully, and purposely chosen the speed, traction, weight, etc so that the cars drive the most like a real car (not the most like an RC car that you seem to think he's going for).
Erik M
Posts: 16
Joined: Sat 2. Mar 2013 11:15

Re: Line change and coil battery consumption.

Post by Erik M »

Ah, lovely!
Several points brought into play.

Now let us see what new issues entered.

Elevation change...
If I understood you correctly the problem isn't going up, which draw energy, but going down. Which possibly could need more brakes than there is.
It's a bit hard to follow that line.
A real car usually have enough brakes to be able to not only hold down the speed downslope, usually they can even lower it a bit. So if this can't be done, is realism a goal?

As for using the steering coil to help get round bends, that only need one question answered. And has already been.
I asked LAsp. And he answered that you can indeed wiggle the car with the steering.
Now, I don't know what experience you got of small boats, with only one oar or no oar but sailing with no wind and no oar.
Anyhow, as long as the steering is not disabled when running along the line, then you can help the car.

Problem here is that I add and you don't read but assume.

Like as to what I want with MAGracing.

You make assumptions.

And the logic of that assumption goes something like this... I don't understand what he's saying, but it sure sound as... something. So he must be, has to be, totally wrong. So us assume he his. And assumption is eleven parts of the imagined truth. So it is true.

Sorry folks, got a tad bit irritated there.

I got no problem seeing the problem going downhill with bad brakes.
I have seen enough Bathurst races, both 500's and 1000's to grasp that problem.
Ignoring the elevation warning coming into Sundsvall from the north also has something to teach you.
(Things like that pharakeets don't really like when the driver make such... assumptions about how the road look.)

But that has nothing what so ever with what a fringe benefit like not overuse the coil is to energy consumption.
The only thing is what you missed here.

Check back on the super capacitor thread and see if you can find the connection.
The real and actual value that part of this thread has to offer.
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Joined: Wed 20. Feb 2013 00:01

Re: Line change and coil battery consumption.

Post by Kuipo »

Again Erik, you're showing that you've never even used the cars. You're trying to fix problems that aren't problems at all. The cars can make it up inclines that are a bit steaper with a running start, but if they stop for any reason (such as going off track), the car won't be able to go up from a stop. The wheels will spin in place since they don't have enough traction, or the car will slide backwards as the wheels spin.

As for being able to wiggle the cars while on the track, I can tell you first hand that's not the case. Turning into the corner may give the feeling that you're doing something, but in our experience it doesn't help. Even if it did help, I don't see why that's a bad thing. Turning with the corners would feel natural anyways.

As for assumptions, I'm taking what's you're suggesting... automatic breaking to stop rear ending, trying to automate lane changes, getting smaller batteries to reduce weight and increase battery life etc... and going off of that. If your suggestions don't lead to a goal, what are your suggestions designed to do? Most people make suggestions to fix what they perceive as a problem.

I don't have to assume what Wes' intentions are. he says it right on his site:
This is a revolutionary new r/c race system made possible by new technology and innovation. It is not envisaged as a replacement for a slot racing set for 5 - 10 year olds set out on the home floor but as a new hobby for adult model car or motor race enthusiasts who appreciate the greater realism and driving skills which this system offers

If you read the rest of that page, he goes into great detail about why he's restricted the motors and traction to get more realistic racing.

But my main point is this... before you start suggesting how to fix the cars, I would recommend trying one of the cars first.
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Location: Copenhagen, Denmark

Re: Line change and coil battery consumption.

Post by Keld »

I don't understand how LASP can say it helps turning the steering in corners. I have tried this and the only effect there are is that the cars goes slower since the battery then feed coil and motor.

The anti collision - bumping into the car in front of you is just like real racing, I never seen a 1/1 race where there was no contact.

Anti collision - not to be able to make line change with a car next to you, why? in real racing that happens in each race too and in Magracing it a great feature, that's one reason more why Magracing is better than slotcar racing. And you never know which car there will be pushed off the line. just like real racing.

Automatic lane change, come on then you don't have the control over the car, make it all computer steered and just sit next to the track and just looking.

This 4 features is for a model train layout not for car race.

(there is nothing wrong with model train, I have one too.)
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Joel, LeNoir
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Joined: Fri 21. Dec 2012 21:47
Location: Washougal, WA.

Re: Line change and coil battery consumption.

Post by Joel, LeNoir »

KELD....... I for one want all 4 of the options listed. But only for ghost cars... I will mostly be playing by myself. And the added cars controlled by PC or whatever would be greatly welcomed.
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Location: Helsingborg, Sweden

Re: Line change and coil battery consumption.

Post by Lasp »

Keld I have a telefontalk with Erik M. And I will call him next week.

And I dont say its necceserly to steer in corners, but U can use the steering knob to get a kind of drifting.
And of course get lose of the wire. We was discussion Lane Change!

I dont have the nowledge in english to make that discussion here at the forum.
And , as Erik M sauys He is proberly the most intelligent man I ewer will meet!
I can agree about that. (Untill else have been proven).
But dont like when words puts in to my mouth! Or on the slickeri tungs!

So i keep myself out of this forum, if it has that level!
Posts: 41
Joined: Sat 10. Aug 2013 08:39

Re: Line change and coil battery consumption.

Post by SlotCarRental_com »

I like to think that a driver that constantly holds the wheel one way or the other, or keeps the power flowing wastefully through the steering coils, is a great way to simulate a driver that is really hard on their tires, and needs to pit more often.... so if it drains their battery faster for doing it, and they have to pit (for a new battery) more often, then so be it!

And inversely a driver that only uses those magnet coils right at the perfect time, for just long enough to change lanes as needed simulates a driver that babies their tires, and is really good on the throttle in the corners.

I would really like to see the cars run on capacitors... and force the pit to recharge.
This would simulate fuel strategies, although an empty tank would go slower not faster... since the capacitors are full speed fully charged and slowly get slower as the capacitor drains.
The driver can then choose to stay out on the track running slow to squeeze in some more laps, or pit now to get full speed back asap.

This is how real auto racing will be when electric cars hit the tracks...

For a good example of capacitor racing, go to the store and purchase a toy race track called Micro Chargers, from Moose Toys (Australia), they are very tiny cars, with super capacitors and a motor, no other electronics (except the few cars that have lights now). You can see how fast they run for their size, even with such a tiny capacitor. They have 2 types one that has a motor that pulls more power out, and goes faster thus allowing it through the loop-the-loops... and a motor that pulls less power out, allowing the car to go slower providing a longer run time or more laps. So less throttle in a mag racer would let the capacitors last longer...
Posts: 41
Joined: Sat 10. Aug 2013 08:39

Re: Line change and coil battery consumption.

Post by SlotCarRental_com »

Hmm... The forum will not let me edit previous post.

Since I hope to use my track for the public... my needs and hopes for the system are a bit different.

I would like to see a stop/start button, anything to stop the cars when the kids refuse to stop.
However instead of just instantly stopping all of the cars, I would prefer it just stop the cars when they get to a certain area on the track where I can reach them, or force them into the pits or something. The start button is great to keep a fair start, since most kids pick up the throttle and just mash it to full throttle before I even put the car on the track, and they never let go...

I managed to do this with my SCX Digital Track with a simple power switch on a few straight tracks, it works great for starting and stopping a race.

I would like to see some sort of anti collision technology incorporated, but I see more need for same-lane collisions, then lane changing collisions.
I want to keep drivers in the front, from going slow and forcing the car behind him to use their battery power to push the car in front of them.
And to keep drivers that do nothing but max throttle from ramming cars in front of them.

I can see this being done with reed switches in the nose of the cars, and magnets in the rear... to switch power off, or slow down the motors in the car.

I do not mind if they change lanes into each other, as that is what gets the most cheering and laughing going at the events.
Having cars that go around the track perfectly, at a perfect speed, and never collide or do anything wrong, would be very boring, and my clients would likely want refunds, or not call me back.
However, for those few times when I let 2 or 3, 3 to 5 year olds do a few laps together in super slow cars lane change protection may also come in handy, since they will not be able to get back on the track on their own.
Posts: 41
Joined: Sat 10. Aug 2013 08:39

Re: Line change and coil battery consumption.

Post by SlotCarRental_com »

Again, I cannot edit... admins need to increase the time period... I like to post, read, edit, post some more ;)

Since I want to slow the cars down anyway, as the videos I have seen they are WAY too fast.
I would like to see an optional rear end for the Mag Racers that include a gear box with an extra gear between the spur and pinion, providing some gear reduction, thus slowing down the car and providing more torque for climbing up the hills.
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