Magracing - where now?

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Joel, LeNoir
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Re: Magracing - where now?

Post by Joel, LeNoir »

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HeliumFrog
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Re: Magracing - where now?

Post by HeliumFrog »

This is a very interesting topic and I am particularly interested in the steering mechanism and motors.

On my travels through the internet I have come across some small combined servo / recievers. They are used in micro indoor flying models. There are many websites that sell this sort of thing and the one below is an example.

http://www.micronradiocontrol.co.uk/index.html

Another thing I suggest is that it might be worthwhile looking at the scorpius car controller. The board seems to have most of the components on it that you are looking for. The microchips run on low voltages, so on board somewhere there must be a step down voltage regulator. By bypassing / replacing this you should be able to run it all from 3.7v or 5v. Its also possible to flash the software to anything you want. Does anyone know any boffins that might be able to do this?

As for battery power there are a few supercapacitor systems popping up. which can be charged with an inductive coil. If you do a youtube search for "supercapacitor model car" there are videos of the HKTREE system. It might be possible to come into the pits and with two contacts under the car recharge in a few seconds or alternatively have an inductive coil under the track so the car is charged each lap. Not bieng an electrical guru I am not sure if you have to wear lead lined underpants and rubber gloves when racing!

I'm not too sure about the target market for magracing, but the current price for a magracing car isn't too daunting for most older racers who have a job. I think if the cars gradually improved in detail but the price remained at that level the sales would still be high.
WesR
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Re: Magracing - where now?

Post by WesR »

Thanks for your suggestions Martin. It's around 4 years since we started development of the radio gear and, whilst it works fine, I think it is necessary to stop occasionally and look what's happening elsewhere, which is what I have been doing. Because of the specific requirements of Magracing however, it still seems to me that we got it about right. Using proprietary gear seems a good idea but by the time it's been modified to suit, I think the cost would be far greater. In 1/24 scale (which I am looking at) there is more room for servos, speedcontrollers, etc., but for 1/32 space is limited.
Manufacturing isn't easy. The rf modules we have been using have been superceeded and I am still waiting to find out the price. I then have to check with the electronics designer to see if the new ones will be ok and then check with the manufacturers to see if they are happy!
I may have to buy 1000, is there a market on e-bay do you think?
Re. capacitors, an attractive idea but I suspect that the radio would not be happy with the large voltage drop. You would perhaps need a separate battery. Also I think caps only give around 3 volts or so in the first place.
I thing you are probably right about the price being ok. It would be nice from my point of view to reduce costs so we could afford some advertising (and even a small profit!) Assuming we press on, I am busy working on a longer chassis and foam rubber tyres, both of which seem popular ideas.
goatdope
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Re: Magracing - where now?

Post by goatdope »

To Wes...Good show trying out the new hardware. The buggies performance being close to a genuine mag racer is a good thing. Don't get discouraged. I believe this will take off like a rocket. I really do need 10 more chassis and pistols. That way I'll have the full 16 channels plus 2 spares. Need to keep all these original mag racers though, for uniformity. Soon after Christmas I plan to rent the Parrish Hall and invite some local racers and who ever else is interested and do some real racing. I have a couple dozen extra bodies in various stages of completion from 40's fords to90's Camaros all painted to resemble cars of the most popular drivers. My theory is to use a single chassis with 3 different but interchangeable bodies , each representing a different era, 40's-50's , 60,s- 70's , 80's - 90's. Will be ordering soon after Christmas. Keep it up Wes, without you we still would be dreaming. For me the dream has come true. Good luck and good health. and Merry Christmas.
WesR
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Re: Magracing - where now?

Post by WesR »

Nice to hear from you Ken and thanks for the good wishes and encouragement. I do need this at the moment. The radio modules we use have been superceeded and the new ones will need a new programme writing. Not good news.
I spent some time looking at smaller batteries but now going in the opposite direction with a larger cell. Lithium ion has always been a worry from the safety angle. Although used in just about every laptop, camera, phone etc., there are still concerns about safe charging. The 10440 size are also a problem to get and some have non magnetic contacts.
The first lithium cell I bought was a CR123 but I decided it was a little too large for the short chassis
cars we wanted to start with. I have been looking at this again however as this battery has several advantages.
Firstly it is easier to buy, being a popular camera battery, and certainly can be bought 'off the shelf'
here in the U.K. I assume this is the case in most countries. I have not got on too well with the
protected 10440 batteries but possibly their small size makes this a little difficult. The CR123, being larger, could be more reliable in the protected form and this is what I am looking at.
I bought a couple of Ultrafire protected cells and built the chassis shown, which is the same wheelbase as std. A bit of a squeeze, the motor is upright, but it can be done. Testing the endurance was a challenge, I needed a coffee break halfway through,but two runs both gave 40 minutes exactly. These cells are a little more expensive than the 10440 but you would only need one!
If someone could confirm their availability in the U.S, of elsewhere, I would be obliged.
Photo to follow.
WesR
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Re: Magracing - where now?

Post by WesR »

The CR123 size is 16mm x 36
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SlotCarRental_com
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Re: Magracing - where now?

Post by SlotCarRental_com »

There appear to be LOTS of these cells available...
Even by name brands.

This is 3V
http://www.amazon.com/DL123A-Duracell-U ... es+lithium

WES, are you redesigning any of the chassis? I was thinking of drawing up my own design, mostly for fun after the holidays pass by.
As I see a lot of ways to save space, and make it adjustable...

With that battery I see some need to rotate it 90 degrees... especially if it gets put under an F1 body.

I hope the new electronics are simple...
I wonder if an adrino or something could be used... then maybe we could add speed sensors, to artificially balance the max speed of each car, and maybe put a 3 use turbo button.. that could be replenished in the pit lane. Or maybe a digital variable that logs how long you hold the wheel to left or right, to eat up artificial/digital tires, that would slow the car down when they are "worn" and again require a pit to replenish.
Ned
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Re: Magracing - where now?

Post by Ned »

SlotCarRental_com wrote:There appear to be LOTS of these cells available...
Even by name brands.
This is 3V
http://www.amazon.com/DL123A-Duracell-U ... es+lithium
The nomenclature for batteries is confusing and evolving. There are a lot of batteries similar to a CR123 available but the battery noted above is NOT rechargeable.

Here is some info copied from LightHound.com concerning small cylindrical lithium batteries:

The primary difference between the Protected and Unprotected batteries is that the protected batteries have a small circuit board, typically on the bottom of the battery, that stops the charging or discharge of the battery in certain circumstances. Some of the circumstances in which the circuit include: Over-Charge, Over-Discharge, Short-Circuit, and in some cases, overheating.

CR123a batteries, which power most Lithium-powered flashlights produce 3 volts of power per battery for most of their useful life. CR123a batteries have been in production for more than 20 years, and they are very safe and reliable. Unless the metal body of the battery is ruptured, or the battery is burned in a fire, these batteries are very unlikely to have any problems. These batteries should NEVER be recharged, they will probably explode if you try to recharge them.

Due to the high cost of powering flashlights with CR123a batteries, the battery industry has developed a new class of batteries known variously as R123, R123a, RCR123, RCR123a, 16340, etc. batteries. Though these batteries are about the same size as the common CR123a batteries, most of the rechargeable batteries produce 4.2 volts of output when fully charged, so they will instantly overpower and destroy flashlights and other devices that are designed for CR123a batteries.

The most common Li-Ion batteries on the market are the RCR123 PROTECTED 3.6 volt lithium batteries. These batteries have a very small circuit inside of them that shuts them off in the event that they are over-charged, over-discharged, overheated or short-circuited. These batteries are the best choice for most applications. These batteries require special chargers that are specifically designed to charge lithium rechargeable batteries. (Rechargeable 3.0 volt batteries are also available.)

Other Li-Ion rechargeable batteries available today include the CR-123 size 3.6 volt UNPROTECTED lithium batteries. They produce 4.2 volts of power when fully charged, then quickly fall to 3.6 volts output. They output 3.6 volts until they are mostly discharged, at which point the voltage falls rapidly. If they are discharged below 3 volts, they will be ruined and no longer usable. The user must be very careful not to let this occur. These batteries should only be charged in a charger specifically designed for them, as those chargers have a circuit that stops charging the battery when they reach 4.2 volts.

Size Chart
This is a chart that illustrates the approximate sizes of the various rechargeable lithium batteries. The numerical designation of the battery gives an approximation of the size. For example, a 10280 battery is approximately 10mm in diameter and 28mm tall, the final 0 indicates that it is round. Please note that the sizes are approximate, and some batteries, especially protected batteries, may be too large to fit your particular application.

10280 battery - 10mm x 28mm (1/2 AAA size)
10440 battery - 10mm x 44mm (AAA size)
14250 battery - 14mm x 25mm (1/2 AA size)
14500 battery - 14mm x 50mm (AA size)
16340 battery - 16mm x 34mm (nominal CR123a size)
17335 battery - 17mm x 35mm (nominal CR123a size)

Size 16340 (CR123a) rechargeable Li-ion batteries are readily available in 3.0 volt and 3.7 volt, protected and unprotected, in the U.S. from online vendors. I don't know if any of these have magnetic + and - poles. Some U.S. based vendors will not ship outside the U.S.

16340 (CR123a) 3.7V rechargeable batteries are available at
http://www.lighthound.com/AW-IMR16340-5 ... _2626.html
http://www.orbtronic.com/two-protected- ... harger-kit
http://www.orbtronic.com/cr123a-soshine ... ctive-case
http://www.ebay.com/itm/4x-123A-CR-123A ... 20f068b6ca

16340 (CR123a) 3.0V rechargeable batteries are available at
http://www.amazon.com/UltraLast-CR123-R ... B00081I7EC
http://www.amazon.com/UltraFire-CR123a- ... roduct_top
http://www.all-battery.com/rcr123a30v90 ... ttery.aspx

Concerning the size 10440 rechargeable Li-ion batteries currently used in MagRacers:
These come in both protected and unprotected versions. They also come with a magnetic and non-magnetic + pole.
The longer protected version will fit in the battery compartment of the chassis if the the magnet in the end of the compartment is pushed toward the outside of the chassis just a little. Then the short or long version of battery will fit. The protected version is too long to fit in the transmitter controller.
The type with a magnetic + pole is needed for the chassis. It seems that the way to tell that the pole is magnetic is to note carefully the appearance of the pole. In the photo below, the battery at the bottom has a magnetic pole. The one at the top does not.
Image

See also viewtopic.php?f=10&t=241

TrustFire makes both protected and unprotected 10440 Li-ion batteries. It also makes batteries with and without magnetic poles. I don't believe that the color of the battery is relevant. I have not been able to find unprotected batteries with a magnetic pole for the chassis.
Protected batteries with magnetic poles can be found at
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00KTT ... UTF8&psc=1
and
http://www.ebay.com/itm/4x-10440-600mAh ... 1354074862

In my opinion the current 10440 rechargeable battery provides plenty of run time, especially since it is so quick to change out. The same battery could accommodate a narrower chassis if it were mounted diagonally or longitudinally in the chassis.
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Keld
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Re: Magracing - where now?

Post by Keld »

I Also think that 10440 is perfect, lot of good run time, cheap, low weigt and reliable.

only problem is that some are non magnetic. I dosn't have those I was lucky all mine are magnetic.
/Keld
WesR
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Re: Magracing - where now?

Post by WesR »

That's a pretty good description of the battery situation Ned. I have tried protected 10440 cells but, apart from the problem of them not fitting in the charger without using a spacer, or in the car (which of course could be modified) some failed early so I was not too impressed. Not sure if the small size makes things difficult for the manufacturer or perhaps I was just unlucky. As manufacturers we would prefer to be able to recommend protected batteries. The biggest problem though I feel is availability which you yourself pointed out. As a manufacturer, we do not want to get involved in battery supply. We are not supposed to send them by post anyway. Some customers are not happy about having to order from China, or having to wait 3 weeks to get them. The main advantage of the RCR123 would be the greater ease of supply.
My latest car has spring contacts for both ends of the battery with magnets just to hold it in place, so avoiding any magnetic problems. Also no stripping of the insulation. (Just have to make sure it's the right way round!) Unfortunately I believe that a diode, such as we have in the controller, zaps some of the power.
One thing I have found with the larger battery is that the peak voltage holds up much longer. You could have a 5 minute race and not notice any power drop. Two batteries would provide non stop racing.
A change to a larger battery would probably mean a new, adjustable chassis as well. It also means more cash needed unfortunately.
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